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View Full Version : Finally going Disk brakes... w/POWER!



RipVanArkie
03-02-2007, 08:17 AM
front brakes started to grind on the 64 so I decided now is the time to convert! I am using the Dodge MC pivot, 7" streetrod booster with Corvette MC. This is the POWER part. Using Billys brackets with 78 G10 calipers and hoses along with 73 Nova rotors seals and bearings.
Wish me luck,


------------------
Later,
Rip
41 R-E-O Speedwagon
45 Chevy 1.5 Ton Stakebed
47 Ford Ton Stakebed
53 Chrysler Town and Country
55 Ford Fairlane Club Sedan
58 Willy's FC170 Custom Cab
64 Kaiser FC170 Custom Cab Dump-O-Matic
64 Chevy 90" Window Van
69 Chevy 108" Panel Van
79 Chevy Nova

SAVAGE
03-02-2007, 08:44 AM
Good luck with your brakes Steve. Looks like you still got a ton of cool rides & projects. Tom

planetvear
03-02-2007, 10:35 AM
keep us updated as best you can. sounds like a conversion alot of us would like to try based on your lead. john

Eric
03-02-2007, 01:58 PM
Just wanted to chime in, the Dodge angle bracket for the MC looks like the way to go but one more option I looked at was 69-74 Ford vans they have the similar bracket but it's all smaller than the Dodge setup. booster and all and its mounted right above the radiator (you don't have to even lay in the dirt) to check it out. the street rod guys use the booster from the ford because they're smaller. Just wanted to throw it out there. Eric

[This message has been edited by Eric (edited March 02, 2007).]

RipVanArkie
03-04-2007, 07:34 PM
Tom, I've been cleaning house! I updated my sig line to reflect my current collection!
John, I will take pics as I go.
Eric, I am using the common 7" booster found in most streetrodding mags combined with a corvette master cyl. From the Dodge I am only using the 90 and some of the linkage. It's not underneath, it is right in your face when you open the Dodge hood. Just like to Ford unit. But, I'm only using the bracket.

For those here like me who also have Econo's, I am devising a similar setup for the 61-67 Econoline.



------------------
Later,
Rip
40Chevrolet 2door Sedan
45 Chevy Truck
64 Chevy 90" Window Van
69 Chevy 108" Panel Van
65 Ford Econoline PU
65 Econoline "ChuckWagon"
62 Ford Econoline Van "90"
AMC Gremlin
67 MGBGT

SAVAGE
03-04-2007, 08:08 PM
Rip, Whats your 65 Econo Chuck Wagon?? Is that your Econo window van?? Tom

RipVanArkie
03-05-2007, 03:38 PM
Hey Tom, the Chuckwagon is the other panel van I am going to shorten it to make a portable kitchen/diner to use at the shows and camping. I have a pic somewhere that will give you some idea.



------------------
Later,
Rip
40Chevrolet 2door Sedan
45 Chevy Truck
64 Chevy 90" Window Van
69 Chevy 108" Panel Van
65 Ford Econoline PU
65 Econoline "ChuckWagon"
62 Ford Econoline Van "90"
AMC Gremlin
67 MGBGT

BvrWally
03-05-2007, 03:51 PM
Rip, Make sure that you take plenty of pics and post them here! I just did the Disc upgrade and may choose to Upgrade that to "Power"? http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/wink.gif
B.W.

RipVanArkie
03-07-2007, 01:47 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/DSC00380.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/DSC00378.jpg

Now I just have to modify the bracket to bolt onto the floor.

MC has two ports on each side, I will use the ports facing rear, block one of the front ports and install a pressure break switch on the other.


------------------
Later,
Rip
40Chevrolet 2door Sedan
45 Chevy Truck
64 Chevy 90" Window Van
69 Chevy 108" Panel Van
65 Ford Econoline PU
65 Econoline "ChuckWagon"
62 Ford Econoline Van "90"
AMC Gremlin
67 MGBGT

[This message has been edited by RipVanArkie (edited March 07, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by RipVanArkie (edited March 07, 2007).]

BvrWally
03-07-2007, 02:04 PM
Way Cool! http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/smile.gif
B.W.

Darth Vanner
03-07-2007, 04:14 PM
hey!! when you are done can you post a parts list and any trouble you have?

RipVanArkie
03-07-2007, 05:01 PM
That's the plan. So far I know I will have to devise a hanger, move the pivot point 3/4" toward the notch you can see at the bottom of the top pic and notch the arm that connects to the booster to clear the plunger housing. To fit it to the Econoline I will have to make a bracket to hang the brake pedal from and maybe bend a slight dip in the shift linkage.

------------------
Later,
Rip
40Chevrolet 2door Sedan
45 Chevy Truck
64 Chevy 90" Window Van
69 Chevy 108" Panel Van
65 Ford Econoline PU
65 Econoline "ChuckWagon"
62 Ford Econoline Van "90"
AMC Gremlin
67 MGBGT

gregw98
03-08-2007, 12:09 AM
Rip, why not use the dual m/c as a dual instead of a single. Much safer have a dual.
greg

[This message has been edited by gregw98 (edited March 08, 2007).]

RipVanArkie
03-08-2007, 06:11 AM
Greg,
Sorry for the confusion, I will be using it as a dual MC. When I said I would use the rear ports for the brakes I meant the ones that would be facing the radiator, these would be front and rear ports on the right bank if it were in line with the pedal travel.


------------------
Later,
Rip
40Chevrolet 2door Sedan
45 Chevy Truck
64 Chevy 90" Window Van
69 Chevy 108" Panel Van
65 Ford Econoline PU
65 Econoline "ChuckWagon"
62 Ford Econoline Van "90"
AMC Gremlin
67 MGBGT

gregw98
03-08-2007, 10:08 AM
Okay. So this m/c has ports on both sides.
greg

BvrWally
03-10-2007, 07:40 AM
Having "Ports" on both sides, along with being a larger reservoir, is one of the reasons that I decided to purchase this for my Disc Brake upgrade! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=001&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=110097589103&rd=1,1
B.W. http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/smile.gif

RipVanArkie
03-10-2007, 03:40 PM
B.W.
I bought my unit from the same seller! My van went on blocks today for the upgrade! I will not start right away, but soon enough.


------------------
Later,
Rip
40Chevrolet 2door Sedan
45 Chevy Truck
64 Chevy 90" Window Van
69 Chevy 108" Panel Van
65 Ford Econoline PU
65 Econoline "ChuckWagon"
62 Ford Econoline Van "90"
AMC Gremlin
67 MGBGT

BvrWally
03-10-2007, 04:15 PM
Rip,
Sounds good! http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/smile.gif I got my residual valves this week and the MC will be delivered on Monday. I know that the Discs will make one Hell of a Difference! That is one of the "Main" reasons I have been real hesitant to taking mine out of the garage the last several years. With all of the work I have done to her over the last 32 years, the last thing I ever wanted to do was end her life in an accident! She weighs in at 5,000 #'s and she does not like stopping real fast!! Thanks again for your update, take plenty of pics & GOOD LUCK!
B.W. http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by BvrWally (edited March 10, 2007).]

m1dadio
03-10-2007, 04:51 PM
Hey Rip; Did you notice if the 73 nova rotors change the track width of the front wheels?
Does the spacer positon the rotor outward or is it just to make the seal fit?

Michel

RipVanArkie
03-10-2007, 07:44 PM
Will do BW

Michael,
I haven't started the install yet, WildBill could answer that for you.

Later,
Rip

gregw98
03-10-2007, 09:13 PM
I have bought a few times from fatrodder also. I thought residual valves were to be used only when the m/c was lower than the wheel cylinders.
greg

BvrWally
03-11-2007, 07:25 AM
Greg,
I'm only following Ken's direction to what he had installed on his Early with great success: http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/BvrWally/2VanMan3.jpg

B.W. http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/smile.gif

gregw98
03-11-2007, 03:27 PM
I just installed a dual m/c and a everything new brake system. Read this once. I need to re-read it. Check it out: http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes3.htm
greg

gregw98
03-11-2007, 03:30 PM
Quote from article:

Residual Valves:
Residual valves are pressure valve use to retain pressure in the lines. The most common use is on a hotrod when there is a floor mounted brake pedal and master cylinder. Mounting the master cylinder (M/C) below the floor positions it below the calipers. Gravity will cause the fluid to flow away from the calipers. The residual valve will retain pressure within the lines. (i.e. 2 pounds residual valve will retain 2 pounds of pressure, 10 pound will retain 10 pounds.) Drum brake master cylinders have residual valve(s) built into the master cylinder. This is needed to maintain pressure against the cup seals in the wheel cylinders. If you are using a disc brake master cylinder or after market you will need to install a 10 pound residual valve for the drum brakes. Do not install a residual valve if your master cylinder already has one in it. This will cause the brakes to lock up after the second application to the brake pedal.

wildbill
03-11-2007, 05:30 PM
seems like the face of the rotors sat father out by about 1/2" or so, than the face of the drum.
wildbill

BvrWally
03-12-2007, 04:36 PM
I believe that I noticed that 1/2" difference too, when I mounted the rims and tires back on myself!
B.W.

RipVanArkie
03-12-2007, 09:35 PM
Drum Removed:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/DSC00392.jpg
Hub Removed:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/DSC00393.jpg
Brake hardware and backing plate Removed:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/DSC00394.jpg
Caliper Bracket Installed and Shock Removed:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/DSC00395.jpg
Shock moved to Front of Axle:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/DSC00396.jpg
Hub/Rotor Assembly Installed with New Bearings and Seals:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/DSC00397.jpg
Caliper and Hose Installed:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/DSC00398.jpg
Phase One Complete!

For reference, photos are of Passenger side.
More to come...

------------------
Later,
Rip
40Chevrolet 2door Sedan
45 Chevy Truck
64 Chevy 90" Window Van
69 Chevy 108" Panel Van
65 Ford Econoline PU
65 Econoline "ChuckWagon"
62 Ford Econoline Van "90"
AMC Gremlin
67 MGBGT

[This message has been edited by RipVanArkie (edited March 13, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by RipVanArkie (edited March 13, 2007).]

SAVAGE
03-12-2007, 10:03 PM
Rip, Sure gets dark in AR fast(LOL) Looking Good. Tom

BvrWally
03-13-2007, 04:08 AM
Looking good Rip! http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/smile.gif
B.W.

RipVanArkie
03-13-2007, 06:22 AM
Thanks guys. Tom, I realized I had no bearing grease in the shop so had to go to town, when I got home I remembered that beer in the freezer... had to drink the slush before going back to work!
I will add more pics today, placing them in order with the post below.
Later,

------------------
Later,
Rip
40Chevrolet 2door Sedan
45 Chevy Truck
64 Chevy 90" Window Van
69 Chevy 108" Panel Van
65 Ford Econoline PU
65 Econoline "ChuckWagon"
62 Ford Econoline Van "90"
AMC Gremlin
67 MGBGT

RipVanArkie
03-13-2007, 02:03 PM
OK Guys,
Phase one is complete!
Disc brakes are installed!
Phase two will be to add the new master cylinder/booster combo.
Phase three will be plumbing the brake lines and adding the proportioning valve and residual valves.

Later,
Rip

BvrWally
03-13-2007, 02:26 PM
Way to go Rip! Sounds like you're moving along quite nicely? Does anyone off hand know what part # to use for "Speed Bleeders"?
B.W. http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by BvrWally (edited March 13, 2007).]

blacklabel
03-13-2007, 03:16 PM
Will this street rod booster work? Ran across it on an ebay store while looking for headers.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/UNIVERSAL-STREET-ROD-FRAME-MOUNT-BRAKE-BOOSTER-ASSEMBLY_W0QQitemZ110100249943QQcategoryZ33566QQrd Z1QQcmdZViewItem

Brian

BZ
03-13-2007, 04:01 PM
I bought one and there is not enough room to install it, with the 327 and larger radiator...my plan is to go with a dual M/C and forget about the booster, IMHO you don't really need a booster in these vans.

------------------
Thanks, Ben
BZ,RZ & Cujo @ N.C. 66&69 ChevyVan

dodgeliner
03-13-2007, 06:57 PM
What about the twin single piston M/C with balance bar with a remote resevoir bolted to the drivers side wheel well? After reading that article Gregw posted (thanks) I'm convinced that it would be the way too go.

Nice work Rip! I bet your disk brakes will stop that van great. Also, you'll have the added confidence of knowing that you won't lose a wheel or your brakes if a bearing fails.

Geoff

[This message has been edited by dodgeliner (edited March 13, 2007).]

RipVanArkie
03-13-2007, 07:57 PM
Blacklabel, BZ is right it will not work set up like that and most drivers would not need it...I have bad knees. I am using that same master cyl and booster but I am redirecting the force of the pedal 90* towards the passenger side. The booster and master will be along side the lower tank of the radiator.

The dodge bracket was not a simple bolt on component, I am modifying it some so that it will work. Maybe by the weekend I will be bleeding the system and going for a trial run.

Later,
Rip

RipVanArkie
03-14-2007, 11:40 AM
Updated the night photos below.

Thanks to Carl for brightening my pics!

Later,
Rip

RipVanArkie
03-14-2007, 05:00 PM
Just an update, I had to alter the Dodge bracket and just need to finish the lnkage and weld the bracket solid, tacked for now.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/mockpwr001.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/mockpwr003.jpg

------------------
Later,
Rip
40Chevrolet 2door Sedan
45 Chevy Truck
64 Chevy 90" Window Van
69 Chevy 108" Panel Van
65 Ford Econoline PU
65 Econoline "ChuckWagon"
62 Ford Econoline Van "90"
AMC Gremlin
67 MGBGT

Joe Russin
03-14-2007, 06:32 PM
ok I have been watching these disk brake conversions carfully.
Rips is a 1st gen.
now if I install a disk brake conversion on my 2nd gen with a dual master cylender I should not need to install residual vales.Because my master cylender is alread lower than the wheel cylenders.......
I will also need to come up with a bracket of some type to mount my front sway bar.....

Mine stops fine but I am wanting to do the disk swap because it is cool and my old girl could stop even better........

...........Wookee

[This message has been edited by Joe Russin (edited March 14, 2007).]

BvrWally
03-14-2007, 07:00 PM
Joe,
I was told that since the MC is so low,ie. below the floor and not as high as current models, that residual valves are a must! 2VanMan installed them and had very good results, thus I shall do the same!
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/BvrWally/2VanMan3.jpg This is a Corvette Disc/Drum MC and does not have built in residual valves.
As far as the bracket for the mounting of the "Sway Bar" after completing the Disc Brake setup, I'll be at the Nats this year and you can look what I came up with to solve that problem! I still need to do a "Detailed" drawing of it, so as to be able to post it here for those that would need one.
B.W. http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by BvrWally (edited March 14, 2007).]

RipVanArkie
03-14-2007, 07:16 PM
Joe,
From what I've read (Greg's suggestion, link below) the dual master on your second gen has 10# residual valves built in. Also you would have to change your MC to one for disc/drum. If not, the result would be that your front brakes would lock up likely before you get out of the driveway.

Joe Russin
03-15-2007, 07:56 AM
Actually if I do this conversion I am going all the way and do all four wheels.
Might be a good winter project for next year.
I need to get one of my daily drivers on the road first so I am not completly vanlees if I don't get done in time.

thanks for the info........

Rip,Will you be able to reinstall your belly pan? Its kinds hard to tell from the pictures......

.........Wookee

RipVanArkie
03-15-2007, 08:03 AM
Joe, not sure about the bellypan yet, the booster is about two inches lower than the bottom of the rad. I figured I could tub the pan if needed.

I plan to put disc on the rear soon, I have two sets of the hardware that WildBill used.

Later,
Rip

Joe Russin
03-15-2007, 02:27 PM
With a welder any thing is possible.....

........Wookee

RipVanArkie
03-16-2007, 09:38 PM
OK, I had some spare time while waiting on parts... and have a spare 10 bolt rear laying around. Also have a Caddy rear brake setup laying around (funny thing is I salvaged the complete chassis just for the FWD unit) so I decided to put the two together. So far it is going very smooth!
I redrilled the caliper bracket and fitted it to the 10 bolt. Next I installed the caliper and pads, then set the rotor in place to measure mackspacing... it was within 1/8"!!! My FIL is turning the wheel flanges on the axles down to 5 3/4" so they will fit into the Caddy rotors. As soon as I get the axle back from him I will be able to determine for sure if a spacer will be needed and prest change-o I will have rear disc brakes as well! These calipers have the e-brake built in and I will be using a late model pedal type e-brake. I will document everything and let you guys know how it works out.

Later,
Rip


[This message has been edited by RipVanArkie (edited March 24, 2007).]

BvrWally
03-17-2007, 07:39 AM
This is an article in regards to using the "Residual" valves along with the M/C:

Residual Pressure Valves are used in a both front and rear brake system as follows:

2 PSI Valves - These valves are used in a disc brake system only and are required when the master cylinder is at, or below, the height of the calipers. It's purpose is to act as an anti-siphon valve preventing the brake fluid from siphoning back into the master cylinder when the brake pedal is released. Even if the master cylinder is even or slightly above the calipers, put one in anyway. If you don't and you park on a hill, fluid will siphon! These valves are cheap insurance - put them in!
NOTE: You will know if you need one of these valves if you had to pump the pedal twice to get a good pedal. See illustration for more.
10 PSI Valves - These valves are used in a drum brake system to prevent air from being ingested into the hydraulic system when you release the brake pedal. Typical wheel cylinder seals only seal when there is pressure behind them. Rapid release of the brake pedal creates a vacuum in the system which causes the seals to relax and air is ingested into the wheel cylinders. Maintaining 10 PSI in the system at all times prevents this. Some disc/drum master cylinders have 10 PSI residual pressure valves installed internally, some don't. If you're not sure, call us and we can tell you how to check. Also, some new style wheel cylinders have cup expanders which negate the need for the residual pressure valve. Either way, if you are not sure whether you have one or not, put one in. They are not cumulative and it won't hurt anything if you have two. Don't worry about brake drag, it takes roughly 75 PSI to overcome the return springs.

This information was obtained from: http://ecihotrodbrakes.com/brake_facts.html



[This message has been edited by BvrWally (edited March 17, 2007).]

RipVanArkie
03-17-2007, 03:56 PM
OK, I got the axle back this morning and it all fits together nicely. I did have to put a flat washer on each wheel stud behind the rotor. With that done it's a perfect fit!
So, when FIL gets back from vacation next week he will take my van axles and turn them down for me so I can put rear discs on my 64!

BTW, this should work with any 10 bolt GM rear.

Later,
Rip

RipVanArkie
03-19-2007, 08:16 AM
OOPS! Throttle linkage is in the way. I like the Lokar set up some of you are using but I don't have the $$. I'm looking into the possibility of using the throttle cable from a big rig, an OEM part may be cheaper than Lokar. I'll let you know what I find.

Later,
Rip

SAVAGE
03-19-2007, 09:11 AM
Rip , Your going to have 4 wheel power disk brakes. Whens the 427 BB ging in (LOL)??? Tom

RipVanArkie
03-19-2007, 12:07 PM
After these mods I don't have money to fuel a BB!

I did go out back to an old boat ant took the throttle cable off of it. It is a Teleflex and longer than I need but it works great! No more linkage!

Check on eBay, Teleflex cables are very cheap! There are a bunch of $20 or less. Or do like I did and get a used one, they don't usually go bad unless kinked.

Later,
Rip

RipVanArkie
03-19-2007, 06:50 PM
Help me, I'm BLEEDING!!!

Everything is hooked up, ran all new brake lines too.

I'll bleed the lines in the morning.

I'll let you know how things go, er I mean stop. lol

Later,
Rip

SAVAGE
03-19-2007, 09:33 PM
Rip ,You sure got that done fast.You have any trouble hooking all the different stuff together??? Tom

RipVanArkie
03-19-2007, 09:50 PM
Tom, so far no problems. The booster bracket had to be modified and is crude at the moment but as soon as I test the whole system I will remove the bracket and make a template then a nice clean finnished product. All the lines were easy and surprisingly cheap to buy. I will not have the rear converted to disc for another week, my FIL is on vacation all this week and cannot mill the axles til he gets back. By then I will have the rotors surfaced and the calipers rebuilt, too expensive to buy rebuilt unless my possible source comes through for me.

Cross your fingers for me, I will test drive it in the morning!

Later,
Rip

SAVAGE
03-20-2007, 07:07 AM
Rip ,Hope your test drive went ok without any problems??? Tom

leadfoot
03-20-2007, 07:21 AM
he's STILL driving! we may hear back from him in the fall http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/wink.gif

RipVanArkie
03-20-2007, 06:59 PM
I'm here, it's still on blocks. I'm having trouble bleeding all that air out! I replaced every line except the hard lines on the rear, that makes for a ton of air.
I'm going to let it set overnight an try again tomorrow.
The booster does make a considerable difference.

Later,
Rip

Joe Russin
03-21-2007, 06:40 AM
Rip,I just redid brake lines in an 86 camaro I have here.I took a good while using the conventional method.Wife in the inside working the peddle and me on the outside working the bleeders/filling the master.
For a while I was getting nothing but all at once they came to me.It took a good bit longer than lets say a wheel cylender replacement........

..........Wookee

Eric
03-21-2007, 09:24 AM
Good luck when I did mine it took forever I even tried the power bleeder but it kept sucking air around the bleeders, finally I thought I had it put it in gear and No Brakes, Did just a couple more pumps and bleeding and perfect I think it might have had something to do with the residual valve.

RipVanArkie
03-21-2007, 09:42 AM
Well, I'm out of commission for the day! Yesterday evening I got something in my eye, flushed it, swab, could not get it out. Went to the eye doc this morning and he had to pick at it to get it out. It was 2x larger than what I could see in the mirror. So, I'm dilated and patched until tomorrow.

Just in case there are some bubbles hanging out in the prop valve, res valves or a joint I am going to hit the pedal fast a few times then bleed it again. I know I haven't got all the air out, I replaced about 30' of line and new calipers.

Oh yeah, the rear flex line was collapsed at both ends!

Later,
One Eyed Willie

fustkarr
03-21-2007, 04:50 PM
They charged me 60 bucks but wheni went thru my toy i replaced everything 'cept the steel line to the rear. It worked, they had the rt. equiptment and a lift. Came back the next day and had brakes.Gotta get one of those pressure bleeders.
Goodluk, Randy

RipVanArkie
03-21-2007, 06:24 PM
Got it all bled out and the pedal feels right. 1/2" of travel engages the rear brakes. Will road test it tomorrow when I get this patch off my eye.

The only bad thing is that I will have to wait until next week to do the rear disc. Oh well, I need to order another 2lb res valve anyhow.

Later,
Rip

BvrWally
03-21-2007, 09:13 PM
Rip...We are ALL confident...that you will get it all resolved! Good luck Buddy!
B.W. http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/smile.gif

gregw98
03-21-2007, 11:42 PM
Rip, I have done that 'metal in the eye' trick so many times that I can't remember. Really sucks, glad tou are better.
greg

RipVanArkie
03-22-2007, 02:59 PM
Everything seems to be working ok. The pedal is a little spongy still, more bleeding should cure that. I bought a MightyVac, it is well worth the $35!
With a good firm pedal I will be able to tell if the proportioning valve is right or if I need to get one that is adjustable.
I ordered caliper kits, pads and hoses for the rear disc brakes and will have that all ready to go by the middle of next week.
I'll keep you guys posted as I go.

Later,
Rip

RipVanArkie
03-24-2007, 12:16 PM
DUH!!
I just noticed that my residual valves are switched! I'm taking my rear axle shafts to my FIL tonight so he can mill them Monday at work. I am going to go switch the pressure valves now and see if there is a difference, there should be if the rears have been leaking back down to the master.

I did order another 2lb res valve for the rear and an adjustable prop valve.

Later,
Rip

RipVanArkie
03-24-2007, 06:11 PM
OK, I added a new thread for the rear disc brakes but I wanted to keep this all in one place too.

Rear Disc Conversion:
Removed Wheel and Drum
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/rear004.jpg
Removed Axle
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/rear005.jpg
Removed Backing Plate w/Brake Hardware
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/rear006.jpg
Installed Caliper Bracket
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/rear007.jpg
Install complete!!!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/rear2003.jpg
Stock E-Brake Cable
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/rear2006.jpg


That's all Folks!!!


Later,
Rip

[This message has been edited by RipVanArkie (edited March 30, 2007).]

m1dadio
03-25-2007, 01:05 AM
What year of corvette master cylinder is best?

I have been doing a serious amount of research lately to come up with an improved disc brake set up for these vans. I have access to a napa dealers spec books and stock I can take home to try. I have gone over just about every rotor availible and spent about 40 hours doing so.

I dont like the idea of the affect on wheel alignment when the wheel is moved out 1/2 " and also I have custom wheels and like the way they sit so I dont want to disturb the look either.

I have found two good rotor set ups. one is a integral hub/rotor (like the nova rotor) but leaves the wheel flange exactly were is originally. But it is a 10.5" dia rotor so those brakets wont do, but it will take the same caliper and pads and roughly in the same location.

The second is a "K" style mount (thinking out of the box) This rotor is an 11" X 1" disc, it fits right exactly on to your exsisting hub like the drum so you dont have to spend anything on bearings or seals and it only moves your wheel out 3/16". This rotor costs alot less too. Other advantages are the disc is a full 1" and 1/8" into the wheel so it looks as though the brackets will work but be mounted on the wheel side of the spindle mount such that the caliper will be an inch further outboard (into the wheel). This I belive will mean you will not have to move the shock or swaybar mount on the 2nd gen. I will keep you informed as I am awaiting arivale of a set of those "BZ" brackets to check it out. This will be cheeper and alot easier to install!

Calipers will be the 74 G10 with the 2+15/16" piston which by the way is the same piston size as the 74 nova and 88 4X4 blazer. Also just for info sakes, the 74 nova and the 74 1/2 ton van use the exact same rotor and caliper.
The 74 g10 van caliper has a better brake hose location for the eirly van application then does the blazer caliper and it is best to use the wagner F71379 flex hose.(says Kurt who tryed a few styles).

I will be going 4 wheel discs on my 65 real soon. I will use the corvette master with 2psi residual valves and an adjustable proportioning valve. I will be using the original brake pedal set up. Looking at the ratio of the early brake arm I dont belive a booster is nessesary and may cause the pedal to be too sensative and springy feeling so I will go without boost at first and see.

I picked up a rear brake set up of a 84 camaro. it has 10.5 X 1 discs which will be suficient. I have also found a 79 to 85 Olds Toronado with rear discs, same setup including wheel bold circle.

A note on bleading. When working as an auto mechanic we would from time to time find a vehicle whos brakes would be hard to blead and or blead real slow. It was discoverd that brake lines often rust internaly, espesialy rear lines. the rust gunk would tend to acumulate in one spot and restrict or block the line. Worst case senario was brakes that would drag on and get hot or just be slow to relaese. I recomend twenty year old brake lines be changed all around on your van especially if it has ever sat for a year.

Michel

[This message has been edited by m1dadio (edited March 25, 2007).]

BvrWally
03-25-2007, 06:09 AM
I do believe the M/C is @ 1967 in which it was a Disc/Drum setup?
B.W.

RipVanArkie
03-25-2007, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by m1dadio:
The second is a "K" style mount (thinking out of the box) This rotor is an 11" X 1" disc, it fits right exactly on to your exsisting hub like the drum so you dont have to spend anything on bearings or seals and it only moves your wheel out 3/16". This rotor costs alot less too. Other advantages are the disc is a full 1" and 1/8" into the wheel so it looks as though the brackets will work but be mounted on the wheel side of the spindle mount such that the caliper will be an inch further outboard (into the wheel). This I belive will mean you will not have to move the shock or swaybar mount on the 2nd gen. I will keep you informed as I am awaiting arivale of a set of those "BZ" brackets to check it out. This will be cheeper and alot easier to install!

I picked up a rear brake set up of a 84 camaro. it has 10.5 X 1 discs which will be suficient. I have also found a 79 to 85 Olds Toronado with rear discs, same setup including wheel bold circle.

I recomend twenty year old brake lines be changed all around on your van especially if it has ever sat for a year.

Michel

[This message has been edited by m1dadio (edited March 25, 2007).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michel,
I think what yo are doing is wonderful! Any time we can improve an improvement I'm all ears.
I will be converting my 69 next and would like to know how that "k" style rotor fits.
Please let me know if you find a rotor that will work with the 79-85 Toronado rear calipers without milling the axles. My machine work is free but if it can be avoided it is all the better.
I will do as you suggested and replace those rear brake lines, I don't think the originals will work with the Toronado setup anyhow.

Also, on the Toronado setup, I don't think the two short flex hoses will be needed on our axles as we already have a flex line in place. They are not for caliper movement but rather for rear end up and down movement.

Keep us updated and thanks again for the time you're investing!

Later,
Rip

fustkarr
03-25-2007, 11:23 AM
Michel/Rip/Wildbill/Diesel van & all other "outside the box types", You folks are a pleasure to listen to/read. Your postings show a thinking approach to problems and not just the universal "Its always been done that way" or "Its what everyones doing". Rather than throwing a checkbook at the problem or learning to live w/a ongoing condition your looking down other avenues for solutions. I've just come from the local Goodguys meet {street machines} and while theres the usual monkey see/monkey do crowd, theres always an area of people selling/catering to the people that arn't interested in building the same car that everyone else has.While i don't expect to see a sudden popular interest in vans anytime soon it is nice to see people who are interested in them {vans} thinking outside the box. I've spend a good deal of time on the WWW in the past months selling {a vette}, buying {3 speed/od,4 speed,scattershield,clutch,juice clutch cyl,fuel injection & related stuff} and reserching frame mods,building, alignment and checking. This has given me the opertunity to observe the "fabric" of the car culture. In just the last year i've watched Craigslist evolve from a bunch of guys {or sometimes babes} who were cleaning out the garage or starting a new project to page after page of airheads selling 20/22/24/26" tires-wheels, turbos,carbon fiber trash bins/hoods and blown-fuel injected-nitros boosted.....shift knobs{that light-up in the dark}. While i don't expect the average joe lunch box guy to be able to build/design a waterinjected/turbo/nitros boosted induction system, a air tunnel to the radiator is a project that most folks could handle {sometimes w/a little help from a friend}or a fold-up bed in the back.. The trip to Pleasenton has just reminded me of how lucky i was when i stumbled upon this site. Keep on thinkin'.
Randy
P.S. While i was looking at the powerbrake "pod" mounted infrount of the radiator in the flics, it occurred to me that it seemed to be blocking a fairly large area of air flow, may come to nothing but you may consided a sheetmetal "spoiler" to redirect air around the assembly.
Goodluk

m1dadio
03-25-2007, 07:03 PM
Rip;
The "K" type is the rotor that slides onto the axle like the ones you are puting on the back of your van.
all GMs that use 10.5" Ktype rotors haD TO HAVE THE AXLES MACHINED AT THE FACTORY. these were on toronado, camaro, seville to name afew with 5on4.75 boltcircle.
there were many gm with 11" Ktype rotors, early trans-am , devile, full size chev and g-10 vans with rear disc option, corvettes. and many others with different dimentions in other areas. These 11" K type are 6 and 3/16 inside the hat so axles(and 1st gen hubs) dont have to be machined. caliper brackets on most those vehicles fit right on to the 10 bolt rear end.

NOTE: check you wheel studs lenght after this mod. Studs can be had in different lengths and Mr. Gasket has a ten pack for $25 that fit your van and are a full 1" longer.

Anybody!! what year corvette master would be for a Disc/Disc setup?

The rotor with the integral hub like the 74 nova is a"J" type rotor.

this picture is the 11" K rotor and 1st gen hub in my wheel.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o122/m1dadio/DSCN0145.jpg

michel

RipVanArkie
03-25-2007, 07:25 PM
Michel,
I'm sure that the master from any 60-85 Corvette with Disc/Disc would work. 1" bore is what I have and it will bolt in right where my original master was, same hole pattern, you just have to cut away the pot surround.
Randy,
An air deflector is something I had not thought of yet. I'll check it out once I get my bellypan back on with an elec. fan.
I added a tunnel to direct more air a couple years ago.

Later,
Rip

RipVanArkie
03-26-2007, 09:42 PM
This is posted in the rear disc brakes thread but thought I'd try to keep this thread complete for the sake of archiving.

FRONT AXLE: $258.34

calipers $11.88 2x $23.76
rotors $42.00 2x $84.00
hoses $12.00 2x $24.00
brackets $100
bearings $3.50 4x $14.00
seals $3.29 2x $6.58
pads $6.00

REAR AXLE: $41.74

caliper kits $5.69 2x $11.38
hoses $5.39 2x $10.78
bearings $3.50 2x $7.00
seals $3.29 2x $6.58
pads $6.00

MISC.: $262.50
proportioning valve $34.00
residual valves $34.50
brake lines/misc hardware $60.00

Master cyl/booster $104.00
linkage $30.00

personal labor 12hrs

I did pay $50 for the whole Cadillac, but bought it for the FWD unit making the disc brakes leftover parts.

That brings the grand total for power assisted 4 wheel disc brakes to:

$563.58 US

Later,
Rip


[This message has been edited by RipVanArkie (edited March 26, 2007).]

BvrWally
03-27-2007, 02:59 AM
Thanks for that information Rip! Keep up the good work...and the great pictures!
B.W. http://www.vcvc.org/ubb/smile.gif

Joe Russin
03-27-2007, 06:33 AM
The main reason there is no brake up grades for these vans is because.back in the late 70's early 80's early van owners were not doing any type of brake mods to there vans.
Hell disk brakes from the factory on some late modle vans were kinda a new thing.
Now there are a bunch of after market companys offering disk brake conversions for allot of different car/trucks (nova camaro),out there.Due to the small numbers of early van owners out there we have been over looked agian.

I have been watching this swap closely.I went through and completly redid the brake system on the "Beast" before I found this site.I will run this original system this summer.(4th season with no troubles).Most likely will do an "Up Grade" as a winter project next winter.........
The best thing is its an up grade done by an early van owner.Which we would not see if it were not for this site.......

............Wookee

RipVanArkie
03-29-2007, 07:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by m1dadio:
The second is a "K" style mount (thinking out of the box) This rotor is an 11" X 1" disc, it fits right exactly on to your exsisting hub like the drum so you dont have to spend anything on bearings or seals and it only moves your wheel out 3/16". This rotor costs alot less too. Other advantages are the disc is a full 1" and 1/8" into the wheel so it looks as though the brackets will work but be mounted on the wheel side of the spindle mount such that the caliper will be an inch further outboard (into the wheel). This I belive will mean you will not have to move the shock or swaybar mount on the 2nd gen.

Michel

[This message has been edited by m1dadio (edited March 25, 2007).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have me thinking... with this setup if you can place the bracket on the wheel side, you could modify the design of the bracket so as to utilize all four bolts instead of only the top two... this is one thing I like about the Econoline conversion.
Would that be overkill?? I guess the caliper bracket would only need to be as tough as the caliper pins, right? So two will do...

Here is the Econo design: http://www.carnut.com/tech/econo/econo1.html

Later,
Rip

m1dadio
03-29-2007, 08:44 PM
Rip: Not exactly so; the forces applied to the caliper by the rotarion of the rotor do not push on the pins. The rotational forces push on the bracket. That is one reason I too would like to se four bolts used.

I do not believe it to be a problem that the curent brackets are only two bolts because they are made of much heavier material then the factory brackets. My consern with this design is if somebody uses low grade bolts and the bracket "shears" them off.Make sure you guys use grade 8 or better bolts, If your hardware store dosent have them you can get very stong bolts from a local aircraft repair station.

That Econoline job is almost what I am designing for the chevys. The chevy will not need as much hub work as I have found a rotor that fits right on exactly including the center circle.

I would like to design a caliper bracket of 5/16 material like GM did but it would have to encorperater one significant addition. If you look at the GM rear caliper brackets(scroll down to your picture) you will see it grabs the caliper slide area at two points and those points tend to center the pulling forces over the center line of the rotor. The purpose of this is to tend to keep the calip[er square with the rotor during braking action and promote even pad ware.
This would be harder and more expensive to make though.
Curently all these aftermarket and conversion kit brackets hold the rotor only at one location on the caliper slide area and that is about 1" inboard of the rotor. The "tendency" during braking is for the caliper to try and twist. This drags the bottom of the inside pad in to the rotor harder then the top of the same pad and the reverse on the outside pad. The result is the pads ware on angles.

That being said; all the after market brackets are mabe from flat stock due to manufacturing costs and hey pads are cheeper.

I will be expirementing with the BZ brackets only because alot of VCVC people allready have them and just to see if they can be used with the design I am creating.

michel

I sure like that econoline job, can you give me some more information on it, Rotor diameter? what calipers? bolt spacings on that spindle? That bracket might just fit for what I am doing!

[This message has been edited by m1dadio (edited March 29, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by m1dadio (edited March 29, 2007).]

RipVanArkie
03-29-2007, 10:34 PM
At the bottom of the installation page there is a contact for Roger Mingle, he engineered that installation. If you ask he will send you a template, instructions and a parts list.

I never thought about the pad wear.

Later,
Rip

RipVanArkie
03-30-2007, 07:56 PM
Installation is lacking only the adjustable proportioning valve and the residual pressure valve for the rear disc!!!
I will test drive it tomorrow if those two item appear in the mail!

Here is a pic of the E-brake assy. we will be able to use the stock cables from our vans! You need only remove 2" of the spring that is wound around the cable end and take out the slack at the other end of the cables. Also you will route the cable over the leaf springs instead of under.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/rear2006.jpg

Scroll down to the picture post below to see the completed rear disc install.

Later,
Rip

RipVanArkie
03-31-2007, 06:50 PM
Well... they didn't arrive today!!
Could I resist going for a ride??
He!! NO!
Bled everything one more time, adjusted the e-brakes and took out a little slack at the booster...

I nee to install seat belts now or I will go through the front glass! I don't know what I was expecting, but my brakes are awesome!! It does a little nose-dive but the proportioning valve and some new shocks shoud cure that.

Excellent braking!

I will take the booster bracket off and clean up the lines some and make a template for reproduction. When I put it back I will take step-by-step pics of the power brake install like I did for the disc brakes.

Later,
Rip
Stoppin' Straight and Sure

gregw98
03-31-2007, 10:10 PM
Keeping yesterday alive through modern technology. Attaboy Rip.
greg

RipVanArkie
04-02-2007, 09:00 PM
Just thought it would be a good idea to diagram my brakes:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/fcinsrc/power%20brakes/brake.jpg

Later,
Rip

RipVanArkie
04-13-2007, 03:00 PM
Hey Guys, Just wanted to give an update.

I have been really pleased with the power brake setup with just one exception: I have been periodically bleeding all calipers thinking that surely there must be some more air in there because the pedal just doesn't seem right. Not the case, no more air in the lines. After reading quite a bit from many sources, I have determined that the 1" bore just isn't enough for power brakes with four wheel disc brakes. Today I bought a power MC for a 74 Camaro w/4WDB. It has a 1 1/8" bore and should work better.

You wouldn't want to use this MC without a booster though, it would be tough to push.

The 1" MC I am replacing should work just fine with a Power disc/drum design.

Later,
Rip

m1dadio
04-14-2007, 11:18 PM
Continued from previous post


Weld up and drill back plate holes

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o122/m1dadio/DSCN0232.jpg

machine axles

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o122/m1dadio/DSCN0245.jpg

assembly

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o122/m1dadio/DSCN0249-1.jpg

there was no spacing or shimming required for the brakes to fit this rear end but the rear end is 2" narrower then the van rear end so I had to spend another $100 on long wheel studs and custom .75" wheel spacers to use my current wheels. when I get new wheels I wil ditch the spacers and get deep offset rims.

michel

startin back on front discs tomoro

[This message has been edited by m1dadio (edited April 15, 2007).]

m1dadio
04-14-2007, 11:19 PM
Hey Rip! I bought the 1 1/8" bore corvette all disc MC. I found an 1 1/4" bore also used on early seventies all disc corvette, maby I should have bought it.

I'm still plugging away at my all disc conversion. I used the 84 camaro rear discs setup. Having done that I now think the toronado rear set up you used is the way to go. It looks to be an easyer install.

I am also at the same time building up an 8.5" 10 bolt from a 79 trans ham with 3.23 posi. Alot of cuting and welding I like every thing new and clean so I have thrown a plie of money at the rear brakes and rear end so far. will have rear sway bar from same car and ladder bar set upas well.

sorry about the bluryness,my cammera had a couple frosty ones.

1979 firechicken rear end brackets

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o122/m1dadio/DSCN0190.jpg

cut off what I dont need

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o122/m1dadio/DSCN0234.jpg

weld on new leaf spring perch, shock mount and lader bar mount. and flex hose attach

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o122/m1dadio/DSCN0240.jpg

continued next post



[This message has been edited by m1dadio (edited April 15, 2007).]

RipVanArkie
04-15-2007, 12:52 PM
Michel,
Lookin' good!
What rotor did you find that fit the original hub? I would like to use this setup on my 69.

Thanks for your research!

Later,
Rip

m1dadio
04-15-2007, 11:42 PM
RIP:
Is it this rear set up you want to use?

I think not! This is an 83 to 88 rear brake set up for camaro. It uses the same parts left and right so the left caliper is behind the axle and the right is in front. because of this one useds a solid line and the other uses a short flex hose and the park brake cable set up is enough to make a grown man cry! The park brake rear cable set up is more work and almost as much money as the brakes themselves! The caliper pistons are smaller then the toronado pistons( I am not sure that is a problem. yet, it may be a benifit)

But I can recomend a solution.

I think the toronado set up is good. It uses left and right brackets and calipers yes but the park brake configuration is much easier and cheeper (free). And I seem to see those front wheel drive caddys with rear disc brakes in every junk yard I visit.

Is it true you had to shim your rear rotors out about 1/8" to make them fit the calipure? Did that make them fit right?
Give me some numbers and I will give you the rotors to use. How thick is the toronado caliper bracket? Why did you have to shim the rotors? were they rubing on the brackets?

michel

I am designing a front disc set up that will be alot like Roger Mingle's econo set up. So far its looking real nice! I'll get pictures soon.

RipVanArkie
04-16-2007, 07:32 AM
I am very satisfied with the rear setup I'm using. Used the spacer because the rotor rubbed the bracket. I need to try grinding the bracket for clearence to see if that will make a difference.

The rotor I was asking about is the one you found for the front that will work with our hub and placing the bracket on the wheel side of the spindle.

I too have been trying to improve the design since I first started my conversion.

Later,
Rip

RipVanArkie
04-16-2007, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RipVanArkie:
Today I bought a power MC for a 74 Camaro w/4WDB. It has a 1 1/8" bore and should work better.

You wouldn't want to use this MC without a booster though, it would be tough to push.

The 1" MC I am replacing should work just fine with a Power disc/drum design.

Later,
Rip<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The 1 1/8" MC works perfect, it gives me just the feel I was looking for.

m1dadio
04-16-2007, 07:00 PM
I just picked up another part number rotor this evening from the parts store and have to check it against my other choice.

I will have a rotor number for you shortly.

michel

Grinding the bracket may not be the answer. When installing, the caliper the outside pad should just about touch the rotor and the caliper slide pin mounts should have about 1/16" clearance to the bracket. If the caliper sits too for from the bracket(rotor too close to bracket) at the pin/bushing mount it may fall off the ends of the slide bolts when the outside pad wears down.

[This message has been edited by m1dadio (edited April 16, 2007).]

m1dadio
04-16-2007, 10:18 PM
this post is getting too long to load. I have some front brake pictures in a new post in the dog hoiuse

michel