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Thread: Converting a van to full plug-in electric

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    Converting a van to full plug-in electric

    I'm working on a van to convert it to full plug in electric. This one is a project for a customer, and as such is already sold. The one we are working on has a 200 hp AC motor, 35 kwh battery which should be good for about 100 miles of normal driving, and runs so quite as to be a bit weird until one gets used to it.

    However, now that we have the mechanical portion of it finished, making another one (or more...) would be duplication, not creation. Would a van like this, or to have your van converted, be of interest to anyone? Putting price, range, speed, everything else aside, is this sacrilegious or would anyone be conditionally interested? As I see it, it could be pretty much a bolt-in kit - not something to be undertaken lightly, but not rocket science, either.

    Just asking at this point. Your thoughts?

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    Hmmmm.......

    this is a Purist or a Non-Purist question.

    I say rip it all out, put 295's on the back, get a Hot Momma and go Screamming down the street!

    : ^ )

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    VCVC Charter Member Vanner68's Avatar
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    GM made a fuel cell electric van from an early, so there is historical factory precedent.

    I don't think you will find a general hate from the vanning community over this, we tend to appreciate the work done on a van even if it isn't our cup o tea.

    I think your biggest determining factor will be price.


    Soo......

    Are you hooking the battery pack to a variable frequency drive to get a 3 phase output for the electric motor?
    Gregg Groff


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    Welcome aboard!
    How much modification of the van is required? Got pics? How does the curb weight of the van compare with other retrofits? Before and after. what is the manufacturer of the equipment? Sounds like a great idea.
    108VanGuy...
    1969 Chevy Panel, 250 CID, 3 Spd.with OD, 3.36 "WedgieVan" Daily Driver
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    VCVC Member kookykrispy's Avatar
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    With fuel below $2 a gal now, I'm quite happy with my gasoline powered engine. But I am interested in your conversion, and learing all about it, and seeing pictures.

    Welcome to the forum



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    VCVC Charter Member Vanner68's Avatar
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    Yes, gas prices will affect the demand for such a conversion.

    It's something we talk about at work, since our equipment uses VFD's. We discuss modifying a Yaskawa VFD to use a battery input (600VDC is the buss voltage for a 480VAC freq drive) and then power a 480V 3 phase motor to run the vehicle. We could do the controls with obsolete parts we have laying around, the biggest cost would be building a 600V battery pack.
    Gregg Groff


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    Quote Originally Posted by dan65 View Post
    this is a Purist or a Non-Purist question.

    I say rip it all out, put 295's on the back, get a Hot Momma and go Screamming down the street!

    : ^ )
    So far, we did "rip it all out" and we put 275/60/15s on the back. It has a 200 hp AC motor, a battery pack in the back, an 18 kw integrated charger, other features.

    As for the tires, the tires hit the wheel wells, but that's the customer's choice/problem. Speaking of rims, am I right that these vans came with wheels that had a fair amount of offset, such that the rim was offset into the body?

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    VCVC Charter Member Vanner68's Avatar
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    As far as I know, they should be a zero offset, 5"or 6" wide wheel.

    Here's a .pdf of the info available at the GM heritage center.

    This is for 68, which would be 2nd gen. 67-70. First gen has a flat windshield, 64-66

    https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/doc...olet-G-Van.pdf

    64-66

    https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/doc...olet-G-Van.pdf
    Gregg Groff


    There's no place like 127.0.0.1

    1968 Chevy G20 108 panel Now with 454 power!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanner68 View Post
    GM made a fuel cell electric van from an early, so there is historical factory precedent.

    I don't think you will find a general hate from the vanning community over this, we tend to appreciate the work done on a van even if it isn't our cup o tea.

    I think your biggest determining factor will be price.


    Soo......

    Are you hooking the battery pack to a variable frequency drive to get a 3 phase output for the electric motor?
    We are using an AC Propulsion AC-150 Gen 2 drive system. It is variable frequency, variable voltage, and has a two-way inverter which gives it DC from the batteries to AC to run the motor, as well as regenerative braking which makes AC from the motor into DC to refill the batteries a bit. The inverter is also the charger, such that it takes AC from the grid/plug and makes it DC for charging the batteries. Very slick setup, really. Price...not so bad, considering. We're using a system that was taken out of an OE project from a few years ago. The cost of the system is about $6K, plus batteries, plus the installation and all.

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    VCVC Charter Member Vanner68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by russbinder View Post
    We are using an AC Propulsion AC-150 Gen 2 drive system. It is variable frequency, variable voltage, and has a two-way inverter which gives it DC from the batteries to AC to run the motor, as well as regenerative braking which makes AC from the motor into DC to refill the batteries a bit. The inverter is also the charger, such that it takes AC from the grid/plug and makes it DC for charging the batteries. Very slick setup, really. Price...not so bad, considering. We're using a system that was taken out of an OE project from a few years ago. The cost of the system is about $6K, plus batteries, plus the installation and all.
    Cool, so with battery around $10k plus install?
    Gregg Groff


    There's no place like 127.0.0.1

    1968 Chevy G20 108 panel Now with 454 power!

    1965 Chevy G10 panel- OHC Pontiac inline 6

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    Quote Originally Posted by 108VanGuy View Post
    Welcome aboard!
    How much modification of the van is required? Got pics? How does the curb weight of the van compare with other retrofits? Before and after. what is the manufacturer of the equipment? Sounds like a great idea.
    108VanGuy...
    The modification to the van is minimal, all things considered. Mostly, it was taking stuff out. There was some brackets welded in the engine bay to hold the inverter/controller. Some mounts attached for the motor/trans, a new driveshaft, and the mounts in the cargo area for the battery box. Some cables and switches added, and away we go.

    The curb weight is going to be close - I need to get the van on the scales once it is done. The weight distribution will be different, of course, in that the batteries are in the cargo area, the motor and trans still centered (more or less) and there's no 6 cylinder engine, radiator, or much else up front.
    The manufacturer of the basic drive system is AC Propulsion. http://www.acpropulsion.com and the manufacturer of the batteries and everything else is EV Grid http://www.evgrid.com
    I'll have some pictures of it later this week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kookykrispy View Post
    With fuel below $2 a gal now, I'm quite happy with my gasoline powered engine. But I am interested in your conversion, and learing all about it, and seeing pictures.

    Welcome to the forum
    Thank you.

    This was not done for fuel saving purposes. This van is intended to run around a local theme park. They wanted something quiet, reliable, that didn't spew hydrocarbon-laden exhaust fumes all over their guests, among other things. The van drives for only a few miles per day around the park, so the gas saving was no issue in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanner68 View Post
    Yes, gas prices will affect the demand for such a conversion.

    It's something we talk about at work, since our equipment uses VFD's. We discuss modifying a Yaskawa VFD to use a battery input (600VDC is the buss voltage for a 480VAC freq drive) and then power a 480V 3 phase motor to run the vehicle. We could do the controls with obsolete parts we have laying around, the biggest cost would be building a 600V battery pack.
    I can help you with the battery pack, if you like. EV Grid's main business is making batteries for the EV market. I'm sure EV Grid could make up just about whatever you liked. One item of concern should be the battery management system - being able to detect temperature and voltage problems, and taking action to protect the batteries and system. You probably have that sorted out, but if not, and you are still interested, maybe we can help somehow.

    Again, for this conversion, gas was not a consideration. The elimination of exhaust fumes and noise were two key objectives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanner68 View Post
    Cool, so with battery around $10k plus install?
    That's close for the used system and batteries as-is (the batteries are take-outs as well, and are at about 90% or so of original capacity). You have to make an enclosure for the batteries, so they can be contained and cooled, plus all the other installation work.

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    VCVC Charter Member Vanner68's Avatar
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    Part of what we do is industrial controls, I have serviced electric forklifts and charging systems in the past, but that is all conventional lead/acid batteries.

    I am interested in seeing how this has turned out, it's been one of my 'if I ever hit the lottery' dreams to do something like this.
    Gregg Groff


    There's no place like 127.0.0.1

    1968 Chevy G20 108 panel Now with 454 power!

    1965 Chevy G10 panel- OHC Pontiac inline 6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanner68 View Post
    Part of what we do is industrial controls, I have serviced electric forklifts and charging systems in the past, but that is all conventional lead/acid batteries.

    I am interested in seeing how this has turned out, it's been one of my 'if I ever hit the lottery' dreams to do something like this.
    OK. I'll post some pictures later this week. The van itself is in good physical condition, but not much to look at otherwise. The EV stuff will be of interest, though.

    Russ

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    VCVC Member JAX's Avatar
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    I saw this one years ago on a forum dedicated to electric vehicles. I'm not sure if it ever got finished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by russbinder View Post
    Thank you.

    This was not done for fuel saving purposes. This van is intended to run around a local theme park. They wanted something quiet, reliable, that didn't spew hydrocarbon-laden exhaust fumes all over their guests, among other things. The van drives for only a few miles per day around the park, so the gas saving was no issue in the first place.
    That is a great use for an electric vehicle then



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    Remember, they're still printing money, but they aren't making any more earlies!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAX View Post
    I saw this one years ago on a forum dedicated to electric vehicles. I'm not sure if it ever got finished.
    Did Chevy/GMC make pickup versions of these vans, similar to the A100s and Econolines? I thought no, but I'm new at this.

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    VCVC Member JAX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by russbinder View Post
    Did Chevy/GMC make pickup versions of these vans, similar to the A100s and Econolines? I thought no, but I'm new at this.
    No that's a 2nd Gen van that they modified/ cut the back off of. Maybe they thought it was safer to have the bank of batteries outside of the cab.
    1965 Chevy Sportvan Deluxe 250 ci 3 spd man

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAX View Post
    No that's a 2nd Gen van that they modified/ cut the back off of. Maybe they thought it was safer to have the bank of batteries outside of the cab.
    OK. I thought so. Chevy had the Corvair truck and actual trucks if that's what someone needed, so it makes sense. Having the batteries outside isn't necessary for the Lithium Ion ones we're using. Maybe if that one was using lead-acid batteries, keeping them separate from the people was a good idea...who knows?

    The battery compartment we're using is fully sealed to the interior, fan cooled and vented to the outside of the vehicle, and has temperature & voltage monitors and a control system to guard against any difficulties.

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    I have been working the plans for my next project, a full electric ist gen G van. I have been working with Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd. who has bee in this business for over 30 years.

    The plan is for 60 mile range, 80MPH top speed motor RPM 0 to 6000 with 1800 FT/LBS torque at 0 rpm coupled to a HP modified 4 speed auto trans (200R4) with no torque converter.

    Todays cost is 7000 for the drive train and electrics and 10,000 for the Industrial lithium iron phosphate batteries.

    I also have to put a 220 volt charging plug on the outside of my house.

    The batteries when trated correctly will recharge up to 3000 times which make a potential 200,000 mile life.

    recharging and maintenance costs are about one tenth the cost of opperating a gassoline vehicle of same weght.

    The difference is you put most the money up front instead of in the tank at $75 a time.

    Have you ever calculated how much money you spend on Gasoline over the life of your van? sit down and math it out, you will be shocked! (no pun intended)

    M1d
    Last edited by m1dadio; 01-26-2016 at 07:22 PM.
    Don't ask me!! I'm still stuck on "who am I?" and "What do I want?"

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    Money spent on gas is no joke when you are really using your van to drive up and down your state or across other states. This could save money when going on distant van events like the nationals. But...you do have to throw in that money ahead of time to make this conversion. Break downs? In a regular break down we all are a bit McGuyvers and know how to tinker with our engines. Would a break down in this conversion be an easy fix? cost more money? I'm interested in seeing the conversion.
    1966 Chevy Sportvan seafoam green/white
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    Quote Originally Posted by m1dadio View Post
    I have been working the plans for my next project, a full electric ist gen G van. I have been working with Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd. who has bee in this business for over 30 years.

    The plan is for 60 mile range, 80MPH top speed motor RPM 0 to 6000 with 1800 FT/LBS torque at 0 rpm coupled to a HP modified 4 speed auto trans (200R4) with no torque converter.

    Todays cost is 7000 for the drive train and electrics and 10,000 for the Industrial lithium iron phosphate batteries.

    I also have to put a 220 volt charging plug on the outside of my house.

    The batteries when trated correctly will recharge up to 3000 times which make a potential 200,000 mile life.

    recharging and maintenance costs are about one tenth the cost of opperating a gassoline vehicle of same weght.

    The difference is you put most the money up front instead of in the tank at $75 a time.

    Have you ever calculated how much money you spend on Gasoline over the life of your van? sit down and math it out, you will be shocked! (no pun intended)

    M1d
    Our estimate on this is >100 mile range.
    The motor is capable of 14000 rpm. One needs a bit of reduction overall. How are you getting the auto trans to work if you use no torque converter? I can understand how you get the input shaft to turn, but making the high-pressure front pump work without a converter has always been a trick - especially when you pull away from a stop - at 0 mph you also would have 0 motor rpm, which means 0 pump pressure to actuate the clutches/bands inside the trans, and it would just slip, I'd think. We are using the 1st gear of a 5 speed. If that's not enough, these vans come with 12 bolt rears, which you can get 6.14's for - plenty of reduction.
    The lithium ion batteries seem to go a very long time - ACP has 100000 mile cars still on the original batteries.
    If you want brand new batteries, you'll get about twice as much range as we have in this one, as the energy-density is so much higher.
    Seriously, if you are really considering this, I'd be more than happy to give you a look/ride in the one we're doing if you can make it to the Los Angeles area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 66BeachCruiser View Post
    Money spent on gas is no joke when you are really using your van to drive up and down your state or across other states. This could save money when going on distant van events like the nationals. But...you do have to throw in that money ahead of time to make this conversion. Break downs? In a regular break down we all are a bit McGuyvers and know how to tinker with our engines. Would a break down in this conversion be an easy fix? cost more money? I'm interested in seeing the conversion.
    Depending on how much you want to invest in the battery pack, you can get plenty of range - close to that of the tank of gasoline with the V8, most likely.
    The maintenance costs are reduced from day 1 - no oil changes, no tune-ups, no filters, plugs, points, wires, water pumps or anti-freeze, no belts, hoses, etc. Even the wear on the brakes is less due to the regen. This particular customer has opted for no heater - the hot water from the engine is now gone, and they decided to just go with the blower for the defroster, but not to figure out a heater solution. If you're in the cold country, you need to think about that. Also, if you have power brakes (ours didn't), you now have no vacuum source - not insurmountable, but not trivial, either. If you have power steering (ours did not) you now have to figure out how to drive the PS pump.

    Break downs are few, if any. But, depending on what breaks, there are likely zero garages that are qualified to fix it. The uninitiated fooling around with seriously high voltage and current capabilities is a recipe for crisping someone a bit around the edges.

    I'll post pictures soon. Like I said, the van is nothing great to look at yet, but the EV work is pretty slick.

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    VCVC Member m1dadio's Avatar
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    I am working on the normal problems.

    The trans will have an auxilary oil pump conected in the trans cooler lines with an Rpm switch to turn on below 500 rpm. nSince the motor is free wheeling there is no need for a torque converter and the trans also provides reverse and a park pin which is a problem when parking a standard trans electric vehicle.

    The heater, I am working on having the cooling of the controler run through the heater core. with the heater core modified with a reversable fan motor to blow excess heat outside in the summer or inside during colder days. I think I will have to combine the trans cooler into the heater box for the same purpose and possibly an electric heater as well, Its all expirimental at this point. you have to think outside the box otherwise you just keep repeating other peoples short comings.

    m1D
    Don't ask me!! I'm still stuck on "who am I?" and "What do I want?"

    1965 G10 all window "ChevyVan" with 1988 305 Tuned port injection V8, 700R4, 1980 10 bolt posi.
    1968 G10 "sportVan Custom" under construction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m1dadio View Post
    I am working on the normal problems.

    The trans will have an auxilary oil pump conected in the trans cooler lines with an Rpm switch to turn on below 500 rpm. nSince the motor is free wheeling there is no need for a torque converter and the trans also provides reverse and a park pin which is a problem when parking a standard trans electric vehicle.

    The heater, I am working on having the cooling of the controler run through the heater core. with the heater core modified with a reversable fan motor to blow excess heat outside in the summer or inside during colder days. I think I will have to combine the trans cooler into the heater box for the same purpose and possibly an electric heater as well, Its all expirimental at this point. you have to think outside the box otherwise you just keep repeating other peoples short comings.

    m1D
    What is the need for the auto trans? Is it the 1st gear ratio? I'm sure you have this sorted out, but it seems like extra trouble to me. The trans shouldn't have to provide reverse - can't the motor go the opposite way? Just have the electrons march in the opposite direction.

    You have a liquid-cooled controller? That's pretty slick. How about the motor - same? What is the continuous rating on your motor/controller combination?
    Do you have regen?

    Anything I can do to help you, ask without hesitation.

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    VCVC Charter Member Vanner68's Avatar
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    I think you will find a lot of interest here, even if many cannot afford to do the conversion. The technology is fascinating, and as the OEM's roll out more electric vehicles, economies of scale will make prices drop somewhat.
    Gregg Groff


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanner68 View Post
    I think you will find a lot of interest here, even if many cannot afford to do the conversion.
    definitely interested, but at $17k, its way out of my budget. someday, far in the distant future, I would like to build an electric car. something much lighter like a 240z or opel gt.
    '64 chevy, 292 40 over, 206/526 cam, 2004r trans. 9.75:1, dual webbers, Langdon cast headers, 1.94 valves

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    Russ,

    My brother is in the process of converting this van. We are not far from you, my brother worked at Cal Poly Pomona for over 10 years.
    If you don't mind us coming by and check out your van, that would be really cool.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    VCVC Member garagedoordennis's Avatar
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    it's got my interest...I converted an old Vespa scooter to full electric a few years ago. It was a fun project and worked out well. This project is a larger scale but sounds great. I had a fully electric motorcycle last summer for about a month ( Zero Motorcycles ) and it was a blast ! This technology is ever evolving making conversions better and better. Ever ride in a Tesla in "insane mode" ? that will make anyone want one !!!!
    1968 Chevy 90 250/700r/Fuel Injected - sold and missed
    1966 Chevy handyvan 350/auto (work in progress)
    1965 GMC 350/auto ( just had to have )

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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeykongking View Post
    Russ,

    My brother is in the process of converting this van. We are not far from you, my brother worked at Cal Poly Pomona for over 10 years.
    If you don't mind us coming by and check out your van, that would be really cool.
    I'm sure it would be OK to show it to you sometime soon, but I have to ask the shopowner first. I'll have some pictures soon to share.
    Last edited by russbinder; 01-28-2016 at 06:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garagedoordennis View Post
    it's got my interest...I converted an old Vespa scooter to full electric a few years ago. It was a fun project and worked out well. This project is a larger scale but sounds great. I had a fully electric motorcycle last summer for about a month ( Zero Motorcycles ) and it was a blast ! This technology is ever evolving making conversions better and better. Ever ride in a Tesla in "insane mode" ? that will make anyone want one !!!!
    Driven the Tesla P version - single motor. Very cool. I'm not a big fan of the gadgets all over the car - like the door handles that auto-extend out when you want to open the car - but the acceleration is super smooth, very impressive. I think someone could get themselves into trouble very easily because the speed is achieved so quietly and quickly as to be a bit deceptive. I do like the iPad dash idea, however - much smarter than a bunch of knobs and switches all over the place, so long as it works every time. I'd like to marry up the bottom half of a Tesla with a van or car I'd like to actually have otherwise. Now that they have 2 motors, I'm sure it's even better, and if one were to strip off things like all those extra doors and seats in the back, and the gimmicky nonsense, I think you'd have a real hot rod.

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    VCVC Member Russell's Avatar
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    A friend sent me this picture from the Peterson museum in Los Angeles, he said it's all electric.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Grill looks cool,different. But if it's electric, why?
    I like the way they cut the trim to line up with the mirror but I don't think it's high enough to see out of?

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    Cool Cool Project

    The First time I stop by the tesla store they have here in the Mall I asked if I could just buy the chassis so I could put it under an early chevy van!!! the sales man said he didn't know? I thought it would have been pretty COOL !!

    Ken
    68 90 6cyl three speed

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    VCVC Charter Member Vanner68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell View Post
    A friend sent me this picture from the Peterson museum in Los Angeles, he said it's all electric.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Grill looks cool,different. But if it's electric, why?
    I like the way they cut the trim to line up with the mirror but I don't think it's high enough to see out of?
    That's the hydrogen fuel cell test vehicle GM built.
    Gregg Groff


    There's no place like 127.0.0.1

    1968 Chevy G20 108 panel Now with 454 power!

    1965 Chevy G10 panel- OHC Pontiac inline 6

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    The reason for the auto trans is because the electric motor has a torque curve that drops off steady from full 442 ft/lbs at 0 rpm to very little torque at 6000 rpm.

    You want the gears so the motor can run in the lower RPm = higher torque at higher road speeds. Unlike a gassoline engine you modify the trans so it dosn't kick down when you want to pull out and pass because that would put the motor to higher rpm but lower torque and thats not what you want with an electric motor.

    Also lower motor Rpm = lower ware and tare and lower power consumption. don't forget Power = volts X amps. All moters be it gasoline or electric have an RPM range where they are most efficient. This electric motors best eficiency is around 2500 rpm and it still has about 600ft/lbs torque at that rpm.

    Reverse in a trans is much cheeper that the electrics to reverse the current to the motor. motor controllers of various manufatur are redily availible thses days and they require a cooling system due to the amount of current that passes through them. The price of uni directional controller compaired to a bi directional controller is big dollar difference. Having reveres in the trans is much cheeper. Also some motors are made to turn equal in either direction and others are made to be most eficient in one direction.

    Another popular set up is to use a drag race built powerglide trans with out the torque converter copled to the electric motor.

    $17.000 is canadian price. That would be about $11,000 USD and dueto tecnology advances and demand the cost of this technology is getting cheeper every day.

    m1d
    Last edited by m1dadio; 01-31-2016 at 06:17 PM.
    Don't ask me!! I'm still stuck on "who am I?" and "What do I want?"

    1965 G10 all window "ChevyVan" with 1988 305 Tuned port injection V8, 700R4, 1980 10 bolt posi.
    1968 G10 "sportVan Custom" under construction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExEarlyVanner View Post
    The First time I stop by the tesla store they have here in the Mall I asked if I could just buy the chassis so I could put it under an early chevy van!!! the sales man said he didn't know? I thought it would have been pretty COOL !!

    Ken
    The Tesla sales people are clueless, I found. They know nothing about the cars. I tried to buy just motors, controllers and batteries. They don't sell parts to you unless you have a car and a shop. Buy a wreck and do whatever you like. Check out copart.com.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m1dadio View Post
    The reason for the auto trans is because the electric motor has a torque curve that drops off steady from full1800 ft/lbs at 0 rpm to very little torque at 6000 rpm.

    You want the gears so the motor can run in the lower RPm = higher torque at higher road speeds. Unlike a gassoline engine you modify the trans so it dosn't kick down when you want to pull out and pass because that would put the motor to higher rpm but lower torque and thats not what you want with an electric motor.

    Also lower motor Rpm = lower ware and tare and lower power consumption. don't forget Power = volts X amps. All moters be it gasoline or electric have an RPM range where they are most efficient. This electric motors best eficiency is around 2500 rpm and it still has about 600ft/lbs torque at that rpm.

    Reverse in a trans is much cheeper that the electrics to reverse the current to the motor. motor controllers of various manufatur are redily availible thses days and they require a cooling system due to the amount of current that passes through them. The price of uni directional controller compaired to a bi directional controller is big dollar difference. Having reveres in the trans is much cheeper. Also some motors are made to turn equal in either direction and others are made to be most eficient in one direction.

    Another popular set up is to use a drag race built powerglide trans with out the torque converter copled to the electric motor.

    $17.000 is canadian price. That would be about $11,000 USD and dueto tecnology advances and demand the cost of this technology is getting cheeper every day.

    m1d
    If you are still considering this project, and would like to discuss some alternatives, we can do so on or off the board - your choice. Bottom line is I think I can help you get what you want with a lot less hassle, with off-the-shelf products.

  40. #40
    VCVC Charter Member Vanner68's Avatar
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    Oh, please do it on the board, this stuff is fascinating!
    Gregg Groff


    There's no place like 127.0.0.1

    1968 Chevy G20 108 panel Now with 454 power!

    1965 Chevy G10 panel- OHC Pontiac inline 6

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